Lets see it!!!!!

Howzit Dave,

I agree with Cal on this one as well have used others but find myself coming back to Harris. I know both YG and WGS carries them and maybe also SE. WGS also had the podloc I believe you can try call and check as its a bit of a drive for you coming all the way from Kapolei.

To me it all depends on what your gonna do with your rifle and the type of shooting your going to be doing as well as the type of area you'll be using it in when hunting. I always check my equipment set up as im going to be using it. If im going to install a bi-pod then im gonna shoot it with the bi-pod in all the diff shooting positions I can to get comfortable shooting in those situations. And also to seee how the rifle reacts to the added piece of gear hanging off the end of it. Personally, I like to check my rifle's accuracy off a frt rest and a solid rear bag especially with reloads. Once accuracy is confirmed and repeatable with the chosen load etc. then I move on. That way I know if something seems screwy then it must be me or maybe something else but not the load. Also if I add something like say a bi-pod then I shoot it like that to see how the rifle reacts and also to see if I have a shift in POI from my original settinng and if so if the rifle still groups according to the data I have or is it all over the place. theres lotsa info and stuff to say here so dont wanna confuse you or anything.

Goodluck my friend with your new savage enjoy it and wish you the best of luck with it.

Aloha!

right on, thanks. That seems to make a lot of sense. I appreciate the info guys.

No Problem glad to help anytime. Are you gonna reload for it Dave or just staying with factory stuff for now?

Aloha!

I want to start reloading for sure, like I said I'm a tinkerer, but I don't know anything about it. I was going to start by getting a Lee's Classic Loader and start from there. I don't know where or even what kind of powders, and primers, etc. to get.

Dave, if you want to get into reloading a starter kit is probably the way to go. check out the link below for a RCBS kit at Cabelas.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0018937214924a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH_all&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&No=54&Ntt=rcbs&Ntk=Products&sort=all&_D%3AhasJS=+&N=0&_D%3Asort=+&Nty=1&hasJS=true&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fsearch%2Fsearch-box.jsp.form1&_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1

This is probably the best kit available anywhere to start. All that is needed is primers, powders, cases and bullets. And included is a speer reloading manual. That manual should be your best friend for a year or two. I probably have in excess of $8000.00 worth of reloading equipment and if it all got gone, this would be the kit to start with and I would build up from there.

The main thing about reloading is experimenting with different load recipes until you hit the sweet spot. I have 12 different rifles only half of them shoot like I want them too. I am always trying different things like seating depth, different primers, powdeers and charges and bullets.

I would venture to say that reloading is a LABOR OF LOVE. Putting together components and shooting bug eyes is a joy unto itself.

Good Shooting,

Cal

Ok one more pic of my rifles.

AR-15
Bushmaster Lower
RockRiver Arms Upper, flattop, with a tactical match charging handle
2 stage national match trigger
20" free floating Douglas barrel 1:8 twist
Leupold Mk 4 4x10 Scope




Cal

Howzit Jedi,
That's one nice looking set up. I've been reading your posts for a while now and learning. I am curious if you ever reload 223s with bullets heavier than the standard 55 grains. Up here in my home village, 223 is one of the most popular. Basically that is what everyone uses, because mostly everyone shoots head shots on deer. I myself take up the added challenge and use a bow, but I like to weigh in on the discussions of ballistics. There was some guy with black hills ammo about 15 years ago that had 223s with 80 grain bullets, he said it required a faster rifling twist like what you have . It seems to me that a heavier grain bullet (80 vs 55) would do more damage at a longer range on a shot into the boiler room vitals and that a 55 grain bullet would loose enough inertia to cause much damage on bigger game animals out past 200 yards. I am curious of your opinion on this? I heard there's lots of guys killing deer in TX with 223s too. A lot of guys here wounded some deer on running shots with 223 and stepped up to 243, but several are devoted to the 223. It is perfect for the seals they hunt and for something like coyotes, but it seems too small to me unless the guys limit themselves to head shots only, or vitals shots to the lungs or heart, say inside 150 yards. Any thought on this?
Ak Andy

Howzit Andy. I love the .223, even from the first time I shot one at Parris Island 26 years ago with a M-16 that had millions of rounds thru it.
The .223 is a round that can be used for everything except bears and that dangerous game type of animals. I reload for all my rifle, .223 , 7mm, 308 , .338 , .375 and even a Ruger .44 magnum bolt action.
My thought before I purchase any rifle is to look at all the ballistics and available reloading data and see what has been working for everyone else then I make my own conclusions. Sometimes they work right from the start sometime it takes what seems like for ever to get them to shoot.
For the .223 if you are going to use heavier bullets you absolutely need a fast twist barrel. That works two ways. First it stabilizes the heavier bullets like anything above 69 grains. In my AR's i shoot nothing heavier that a 69 grain only because to prevent feeding problems from the magazine. In my bolt guns I shoot 69 and heavier. For My 1000 yd bolt gun I shoot Berger 80grains, because that is the only bullet that will make it that for and stay supersonic with out over pressure signs.
For hunting I use 75 and 77 grain bullets on deer out to about 600 yds. I have never had a deer run more than 50 yds with a well placed heart lung shot. 400 and less I usually make head shot to save as much meat as possible but sometimes the wind makes a mess of that.
So to answer your question it is my opinion that a factory barrel is good up to probably a 69 grain bullet. Anything bigger than that and yes you will need a faster twist barrel of at least a 1:8 or 1:7.5 to stabilize them.
If i had to pick a single .223 round that was the only that I could ever possible load it would be: .223 wichester brass, federal 205 small match primers, 23.1 grains of Varget with a 77 grain SMK. I know that is a match round but I have sent plenty of whitetails to deer heaven with them wondering "what the hell was i just hit by".
My biggest bit of information that I can give to you is READ everything you can about the .223. There are siome guys out there doing some amazing things with the .223
If I can be of anymore help let me know.
Good Luck, Good Shooting and Good Hunting.

Cal

Me personely I would prefer the .270 over a .223 more so in an area with man eating game...the .270 130-150gr are some of flatest fying bullets at 275-325 yards. Dont get me wrong I like the 223 hell if its good enough for our boys overseas its good enough for me, but the knock down power is greater with the 270 and if i ever came into a shouting match with a grizzly and im stuck with a caliber that starts with the #2 hope its a 270...lol

I would of thought up in the alaska area it would be a popular rifle? how does it fair in the wild country up there Andy?

Aloha Dave,

No problem on the reloading my friend i'll help you best I can plus I got 15+ manuals as well if you need info plus I can hook you up with some helpful info as well for you to look at. If youre serious lemme know we can talk more about it. If you get the setup Cal has listed then I would encourage you to get a case trimmer as well, me personally I like the forster collet trimmer's. Also the Hornady (formally Stoney Point) OAL Tool with appropriate modified case. This tool allows you to measure COAL and also check headspace, shoulder bump etc. it helps when trying different seating depths with a specific load. But as Cal has said it truly is a Labor of Love but you being a tinkerer like I am im sure you'll be fine LOL! I must say though that it is an addicting thing and once you get bitten man it can get real expensive real fast LOL! Take it easy and goodluck in your reloading endeavor and if theres anything I can do to help please feel free to ask.

Aloha!

AK Andy wrote:but it seems too small to me unless the guys limit themselves to head shots only, or vitals shots to the lungs or heart, say inside 150 yards. Any thought on this?
Ak Andy

Aloha Andy,

I know you asked Cal the question but just wanted to add my opinion here if I may. What the guy told you years ago is absolutely correct you need a faster twist barrel to stabilize the heavier bullets. Also when talking about bullet weights you also MUST consider bullet construction take for instance a std 55 gr SP bullet vs a 53 gr Barnes TSX ive used both and the TSX spanks the std SP in all aspects. The TSX construction lends itself to better penetration due to better weight retention. You must understand that most .22 cal bullets are varmint bullets with thin jackets and explosive expansion. This is what they were made for not for larger game although they can and do work as your post and many others like it prove. If head shots are being made no problem if heart/lung shots are going to be taken i'd opt for the TSX in this weight class if you insist on using a .223. Most factory .223's come with a 1-14 twist for the lighter bullets although if you go custom you can pick what you like.

But I believe you answered your own question in the comment you made above that I quoted from your last post.

Aloha and Happy Huntin'!!!

"if its good enough for our boys overseas its good enough for me,"

Howzit HYPA,

Sadly I dont think its doing well at all, thats why some new calibers have popped up like the 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC etc was to address the issue of inadequate penetration/knockdown power of the NATO 5.56 round during engagements oversea's. Especially when engaging those with multi layered clothing etc. They also created some great CQB cal's too like the .458 Socom, .50 Beowulf, the Whispers and the like, gotta love those heavy hitters.

Aloha my bradda!

Mahalos for the reply Jedi, I knew you would be a wealth of information on that. Interesting to hear that the 223s work great on boiler room shots out at 400+. Is seems to me the tiny 55 grainers would lack power out there for big game, but the 69 grainers on up to 80 grainers would pack more punch. You gotta have a gun and shooter capable accuracy at that range though, and most the locals guys up here in my village won't even consider shooting that far and have never even taken a practice shot a ranges like that. Seems in 223 these guys use mini 14s more than bolt guns. I know some ARs at a neighboring village too (likely standard twist rates). hey Koa you make a great point about the bullet type too, I tell guys here that a FMJ 55 grainer has no business being used as a hunting round, but some guys beat their own drum and buy the cheapest thing they can buy in bulk, some guys agree though and switched to plain old soft points though, some guys like 222s and one guy even using a .17 , The small calibers are most popular out here on my home islands, likely because the native crew shoots seals and otters as well as deer. Sometimes bears too with 223. I would think for self defense though a 12 gauge slug would be ideal if being charged.
Howzit Hypa? Yes the 270 is popular in AK, but moreso on the mainland -we got black bears here, but not grizzlies on this island, next big island over has em though. I don't go there anymore. 270 in 140 grains is a great deer round for sure, perfect caribou round and ideal for sheep too. seems more better than a 100 grain 243 in general for game bigger than fox, coyotes, lynx or wolves. Either one will dust a deer, but at 400 yards I think a 140 grain slug is better than 100 grains. Some interior guys and over in Canada even use 270 a lot for moose too, but it seems guides and such on the mainland or in Southeast AK islands where there are a lot of bears use 30 cals or larger. I hear they recommend a 30-06 minimum when hunting bears with clients. 300 mags are way popular, some 375 H&Hs common too, a rare 416 rigby or a 45-70 you hear of sometimes, but the all around caliber in the state in bear country seems to be the 338 - I heard that 338 is the most popular caliber in the state carried by guides. Likely 30-06 is the most popular caliber carried by clients though -maybe 300 win mag will surpass that someday, and I hear rave reviews about the 300 weatherby mag and Rem ultra mag gaining momentum with hunters for improved ballistics over the 300 Win mag. for smaller big game it seems in general overkill, but everything seems to have it's perfect niche - one caliber ideal for one or two things, a lot of guys trying to cover too many bases with one gun and then again if you opt for something bigger you can't make something too dead, a good bunch of meat might get ruined though, then again I have seen more that one deer with both front quarters ruined when friends broadside them with 243s. I have concluded that a small faster bullet makes hydrostatic shock and ruins just as much meat by brusing passing throughout the layers than what gets shredded as a slower huge bullet carrying more ft lbs of energy flies through tissue. back to Koa: Bullet type is always a big player, I do not know the TSX bullets or much about the newer bullet types, of course I have heard the A-frames and partitioned bullets like noslers cause more knock down and shock with higher % weight retention of the slug after it hits if it stays in one piece and doesn't dissipate the energy into several smaller fragments. Maybe in AK, Bigger and solid seems better if you wanted to err on the safe side of things, but smaller and flatter trajectory might spell better accuracy at longer ranges due to less holdover....hmmmmm? But I know of people that years ago killed moose and brown bears with 22 LR , and even one guy who killed a moose with the back of an axe to it's skull. so seems a well placed anything will do the trick when in the hands of the right guy- I think you all know what I mean.
anyhow, I could chat this stuff all night, but gotta split and go to work tomorrow- laters,
aloha,
Andy

Hey guys, i think I need to back up for a minute. I think I wrote the last post and made it sound like the .223 was he ultimate round for every tpe of game. Let me say that it is not by any stretch of the imagination. Along with that I will say that there is no perfect round for any type of game. One of the oldest known debates around other than, should prostitution be legal or not, is what is the best deer hunting round, the 30-30 or the 30-06. Once again I will say there is no perfect all around round. There is a perfect round for that particular hunter. If a hunter can make a prefecdt head shot at 1k yds everytime with a 22-250 then that is the perfect round for him, or it could be a 600 nitro mag. Every shooter needs to know his limitations. I know mine and if I see a record buck at 1900 yds and I know my .338 LM is only accurate to 1700 yds there is no way I will chance the shot, and wound a animal.

If I had to choose a perfect hunting round for me it would be the 7mm REM Mag, because i can use a bullet as small as 110 grains for varmits or up to 180grains for anything.

The point Im trying to make is if you are good with a .223 and are comfortable and know your limitations then by all means use it. If your not then for Gods sake use something big enough to make the animal suffer as little as possible.

No matter what caliber you use, be efficient with it shooting in all conditions and positions.

Cal

ROGER dat! jedi and yes prostitution should be legal ...nah just joking but imagine how much tax revenue that would bring...lol no more furlough friday....lol.

I agree some guys need to shoot the round that they are competent at..alot of guys like to shoot a round that everyone else is just to say they have one, Hell those guys would probably have more luck if they were not getting blown back by the recoil..lol

I agree! with a side note that check and make sure its legal for the game etc. youre gonna use it on. I have friends from AK and others who have hunted tehre etc. and they dont mess around when it comes to game law violations etc. so ive been told but im sure AK Andy would be better to say then me.

One thing i'd like to add and you allude to Jedi is not only must one know his/her limitations but also the limitations of the rifle/pistol/caliber/bullet combo they are using and PRACTICE,PRACTICE,PRACTICE!!!!!

Hey Jedi,

Whats the makeup of your 338 LM if you dont mind my asking?

Ok guys, the "snowball effect" is in motion. I have a Lee Classic Loader on the way.

UpFront, my friend the addiction has began. In a few months you will be a junkie and nothing else in life will matter except getting your fix from reloading the next batch of rounds for an even more accurate load for your rifle. Just kidding. It is really good that you are starting to reload and congratulations. If I can be of any help just ask.

Koa, my 338 Lapua is built off of a Remington 700 long action receiver , mounted in a McMillan A-5 stock with a 30 inch Broughton 1:9 twist barrel with a fat bastard brake to tame the recoil. A nightforce 20 MOA base with a nightforce 5.5x22.50 NXS scope. A jewell trigger set at 30 oz break.. the action is trued and blue printed, the barrel is fluted. a badger bolt handle, and harris bi-pod.

I am shooting 300 gr lapua scenar over, 91 grains RL-25 with .338 lapua brass and federal 215 LR magnum primes.

I have hit 24"x24" steel plates out to 1700 yds with it consistantly , even in winds up to 15 MPH. It is truly a tack driver.


Cal

Hey guys, sounds like we all generally agree that "to each his own"- what's right for one guy might not be what's right for the next guy, but as long as everyone is proficient with what they use- then it's all good with me.... Koa, you and I agree about practice being of utmost importance,
Jedi, that 338 Lapua sounds like THE perfect long range moose rifle. Like shooting from one mountain to the next one over, or for a 1/4 mile across open tundra. Anything that tosses a 300 grain slug into a 24" target beyond 1000 yards and still pack a punch would be perfect for long range on a moose, they take a lickin and keep on tickin if the bullet is too small and doesn't whack a vital organ. Trouble up here is guys shoot really far with smaller bullets and game gets wounded. Again, because they likely didn't practice enough. To me, it is accuracy that counts most with bullet (or arrow) placement being on target as what matters. It seems that rounds with a flatter trajectory make accuracy that much easier and (Like Jedi) I almost mentioned the 7mm Rem mag before when I mentioned the 270 - the 7mm seems to cover a lot of bases and I am surprised it is not more popular in AK because it is hard to beat 7mm for having flat trajectory, and thus like a 300 mag has less arc in flight and require less holdover at long range. I think that makes a guy more accurate if he doesn't have to guess inches of holdover out at hundreds of yards. I think having the ballisitics chart of how your hunting round shoots taped to your scope or stock is the best idea and eliminates guess work. Especially if you use a rangefinder. These newer multiple crosshair scopes for various range shots are gaining popularity too.
and yes, someone mentioned about being sure that the caliber you use for various game is legal for that game, a hunter always must be aware of that, in AK for sure there is no fooling around, game violations are taken seriously up here and guys loose their privilege to hunt if they break laws. I am bummed to hear about those morons on Big Island shooting cows - and they are shooting with archery equipment too! Be careful, We need to make sure they are not called "hunters", and idiots like that should be called "shooters". A point should be made to disassociate irresponsible guys like them from respectable and ethical sportsmen like us. News papers mislabel them as "hunters", and the general public will give us guilt by association and we need to establish that we are not a part of their bad inhumane deeds. I think some HI hunter association, or even a federal hunter club should take up a collection and then make it known publically they donate the money towards a reward to help bust those clowns. I don't have a lot of money, but I'd send in $20 bucks if someone organized that.
Meanwhile like usual we should all do our part and follow the rules and regs to a T and we owe it even more to the animals we love to hunt to make clean and efficient one shot kills by using calibers or archery equipment that we are practiced to proficiency with and that we know when we pull the trigger or release the arrow that it will fly and hit it's mark where we aimed. If we got that down then Like Maukakane1 was saying, we hunt with confidence. And that confidence translates to more successful hunting. My hats off to all you guys, I am glad to get to talk with a crew of hunters that I can relate to. Mahalos and Cheers braddahs! I'll be practicing with my bow a lot until I get to come hunt in Feb/March, I am totally stoked about hooking up with my friends again and looking forward to some action in the bush, both treestand and dog and knife.
sorry I sort of went off on a tangent- I tend to do that sometimes - don't get me started, I can talk hunting all day and night.
Aloha,
AK Andy

Dave,

Congrats on the reloading equipment you'll be addicted in no time LOL!!! Right on welcome to the club hehehehehe! and as Jedi said if we can be of any assistance plz feel free to ask.


Jedi Great Components I like broughton barrels too but to date my best been hart. My Lapua is based off a Sako TRG action,Hart barrel,S&B 4x16x50 PH and I love the caliber wanna improve it so maybe someday i'll get it done but got other things goin on so its on the back burner. Right now im working on my 280 AI hope to get that done soon then start on some of the others. I really wanna start on my 6.5x47 Lapua but havent had the time plus so much to do so little time. Well Good Shooting my friend and TTYL!

AK Andy, Dont worry alot of us can talk hunting all day too hahahaha take it easy and happy huntin'/Shootin!!!

Aloha1

This is the first ten shots out of a brand new never before fired barrel from my .308 from 200 yds. the out side measures .861", if you subtract the .308 for a average size , and it is .553 " group at 200 yds. thats a 10 shot .25 moa shot group.




Cal

Thats some Awesome shooting right there! I'd say you have yourself a shooter

WOW! Jedi, I figure just being MOA is awesome, but sub 1/2 MOA is incredible and sub 1/4th is Astounding! Incredible!
I've been shooting my bow a lot lately in preparation for hog hunting on Kauai in late Feb. planning on trying some newer model broadheads and whacked a dead center bullseye with the first RAge 2 blade practice tip and the next one made a loud "crack" when it hit the center too, and this is what I got to pull from the target. (gonna try to post the pic). I'd say with your 308 a group couldn't get much tighter than that, and with my bow and arrows with broadhead tips even, I am thrilled to have a comparable "tight" group. I have gotten 2 other robin hoods in my life, but always field tips, never have I gotten one with broadhead flight. It proves they fly consistent.
That's one awesome target for a 10 shot group - If I ever shot something like that I'd frame it and put it on the wall. Amazing!
Mahalos for posting that. (now I'll try to post this double arrow pic.)

Andy great shooting with your bow that pic brings back some memories and I would say that counts as a "one hole group"

Heres some groups from a 280 AI that I worked a load for first is a 200 yd three shot group that measured .338"- .284" = .054", second is a five shot group that measured .400" - .284" = .116" with the same rifle (the lower bullet hole is from a known accurate load to check scope alignment before shooting the 5 shot group). Its very accurate but its the lower node as the vel. is on the slow side need to find the higher accuracy node. This is plenty accurate for what its intended use is and I would also like to say that although these may be some good groups a 10 shot group from a new barrel with the accuracy Jedi is getting is only going to get better